IndyCar fan's designs changing opinions about the DeltaWing
by Tony Johns on Feb 18, 2010 3:33 PM EST
in Feature Stories
25 comments
A bold move. The potential savior of Indy-style racing. A grand leap forward in innovation and styling for a moribund racing series.
That is how designer Ben Bowlby and the IndyCar owners behind DeltaWing, LLC look at their new creation.
Not very many IndyCar fans share their perspective - particularly after the foam model was unveiled in Chicago.
But there is one fan out there who does, and he decided that he needed to do his part to get his fellow IndyCar enthusiasts to open their eyes and join him.
Accordingly, he put pen to paper and "reimagined" the DeltaWing on his own. And judging by the results above and the buzz they're creating, he may have achieved his goal... and perhaps he has saved the DeltaWing in the process.
He posts under the name "stpwildcat" at TrackForum.com. He isn't keen on sharing his real name because of his day job as a concept designer for one of the Big 3 automakers.
But he's also an enormous IndyCar fan and has been since he was a young boy growing up in Albuquerque, New Mexico and his favorite racing family - the Unsers - were the stars of the sport. So when he heard about the DeltaWing concept and the way it could change the whole landscape of IndyCar racing for the better, he was sold.
"I feel this concept is the last hope of our series," he says. "Fans need to see that the concept of the DeltaWing is brilliant."
The big hurdle, of course, is the way that form followed function in Bowlby's design. The DeltaWing foam model that Bowlby and company showed at the Chicago Auto Show set off a firestorm of controversy in fan circles. Put bluntly, people hated the way the car looked, and, initially at least, stpwildcat was no exception. "I hated the DeltaWing when I first saw it," he confesses.
But with his artist's imagination and his industry experience, he realized that the fundamental concept was sound. He got the point that DeltaWing, LLC has so far had trouble communicating to the fans - that the foam model is only a first step and that DeltaWings may end up looking radically different depending on who builds them.
So he decided to help out - unbidden and independently - by putting the idea into pictures. Calling upon his design skills, he sketched out a slightly modified version of the DeltaWing with some styling cues and livery design inspired by a classic Penske Racing chassis.
The changes were kept to a minimum - a slightly different fairing on the rear wing assembly, a rollbar instead of the airbox-styled structure on the model, a shark fin instead of a vertical stabilizer, and more traditional nose that made the front wheels look more separated.
The small changes he made subtly altered the look of the car without tampering with the overarching concept that the DeltaWing represented. And the fans responded.
"10,000,000 times better," said one. "A huge difference," enthused another. And - perhaps the most promising for the DeltaWing supporters - there were more than a few who said, "I could live with this!"
After a week and a half of threats from fans about leaving the series if the DeltaWing was adopted, this represented a major shift in perception for the DeltaWing concept. All in a day's work for stpwildcat, though.
"The looks of the car [grew] on me, but I know the potential for great looks is always available," he says. "I wanted to show some of our more hard-headed fans that this car can look great. It can look great if it's done right.
"I [was] afraid that the backlash toward the DeltaWing would kill it before it starts. So these drawings are meant to open some eyes and minds."
stpwildcat isn't done yet, either. He's planning a total of six different DeltaWing concepts - including a Foyt Coyote - from several different angles to illustrate the potential for multiple manufacturers. He plans to make them into a booklet and hand them off to someone like Robin Miller, who he hopes can get the sketches into the proper hands. He also says that he is trying to work up the nerve to slip a booklet into his neighbor's mailbox. The neighbor? Roger Penske.
As for DeltaWing, LLC? Since the project is supposed to be open-source, initiative like stpwildcat's is likely to be encouraged - perhaps even rewarded with the opportunity to work with them on designs and consulting. If such an offer was made, stpwildcat makes his position clear: "I would do anything and everything for them... in any way."
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But that is the whole point
This is why I continue to be baffled by the vitriol aimed at the DW design and what underpins it.
The above drawing is an example of what potentially can and will happen within the ‘open source’ frame work.
But people just ignored the potential of the entire project and gnashed their teeth anyway because it looks a bit like male genitalia.
This is a great post as it goes a long way to proving the DW’s point for them.
Cheers,
Dex
by Declan Brennan on Feb 18, 2010 3:40 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The problem is (or now, was)...
…that people couldn’t visualize what “open source” might mean for the concept. All they could see was the only visual example of the DW that existed – the Bowlby car.
I have to admit that I suffered from that a bit too, which is why I put up the short-lived restyling challenge (that nobody else decided to accept). And I admit that now that I see stpwildcat’s sketchwork, I’m a LOT more excited about the possibilities of the DeltaWing.
Put stpwildcat’s DW against the Lola and tell me which car looks better. Not even a contest IMO.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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by Tony Johns on Feb 18, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Completely agreed. You basically wrote the comment I wanted to as I read this post. I actually kinda liked the original DWing design, but this.. this concept really raises the bar.
Bill Polian has forgotten more about football than you ever have or ever will know.
still have to wonder...
how can the open source style keep the costs where the IRL is asking it to? I just can’t see how if the 3 manufacturers need exclusive deals to make the price meet the series goals, how can having multiple people manufacture the delta wing make it happen? also, why would swift, dallara, etc be willing to make this car instead of their own?
I’m trying to let the delta wing concept grow on me, and this certainly helps. but until we hear from manufacturers about how they can adopt it, things still seem too far fetched for me.
TN Sports fan in Hoosier Country....
Some opinions...
I’m not sure how the financials would work. Maybe they’re thinking that the more builders of the DeltaWing there are, the lower the manufacturers will have to charge in order to stay competitive in the marketplace, I dunno.
Conceivably, though, teams could build their OWN DeltaWings since the source material would be openly available. I think part of the thought process from DW is meant to limit the amount to which teams are hamstrung by being limited to specific engine and chassis builders. In that respect, I support the DW concept wholeheartedly because one of the big problems of having an exclusive supplier is that they control all costs and supply and consequently wield too much power as a result.
Thing is, if a DeltaWing is less than half the cost of a current car and the engine spec is opened up thanks to the motor being a non-stressed chassis member, it’s going to get a lot more folks a lot more interested in being involved with IndyCar. If the tech is pioneering (i.e. generating 240mph from 300hp) then a lot of car companies are going to want to use that as a selling point for their products.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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If you turn the Delta Wing debate into an aesthetical design exercise, you are dismissing all of the engineering parameters that guided the concept.
This is about using the minimum quantity of fuel to produce the minimum required horsepower to achieve 230 MPH. Bowlby designed an ingenious concept for doing it.
Eliminating drag horsepower losses is the singular focus, and the narrow front wheel track is presumably the only way he could have gotten close to the .24 coefficient of drag.
So shape it any way you want, and accept the requirement for more horsepower: that means less fuel efficiency, more weight, and more expense.
Form follows function. THAT’S the whole point.
Function also has a price tag, which is why the $140K AER engine was selected. Bolt anything else in you can fit, and start adding HP to compensate for the 10% increase in the vehicle’s gross weight.
On another note, I need to hear a lawyer explain how licensing will be granted, and intellectual property compensated for, in this open source system. And how independant fabricators will be protected from potential abbrogation of liability claims.
Then I need to understand how the inner circle of the IndyCar community will become receptive to the submission of public input. It has already been proven to me that neither Series officials or team principals will acknowledge receipt of independant initiatives now.
Andy Bernstein
The point stpwildcat is trying to make is...
…that the form that follows the function can be made appealing WITHOUT sacrificing or dismissing the engineering parameters that guided the concept.
The “restyled” concept was designed over the top of the Bowlby design, so the front wheel track is identical to the original concept. The nose structure is not as uniform which could prove to be an issue in terms of drag, but it’s not something that will send costs and weight and horsepower requirements skyrocketing and efficiency to plummet.
I respect your POV from an engineering standpoint, but the fact of the matter is that a very very small percentage of IndyCar’s fans are engineers. Form may follow function, but in a sport that is driven by consumer interest you HAVE to pay attention to the form and make it aesthetically appealing.
stpwildcat’s concept hasn’t been put through the CFD or anything but it DOES show that the DW can be practical AND appealing. That’s the whole point of the exercise.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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by Tony Johns on Feb 18, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What is the "concept" ??
If we take Chip’s claims that the DW Is a “concept” … then who is going to write the rules that define what is acceptable or not accepable in the way of parts/chassis/engines ?? If I’m Lola and I want to build a DW, what rules/specifications do I have to follow to build a car ??? Or is the current DW a “template” that I have to adhere to ??
If I show up at the track with a chassis that looks like the picture above … who decides if it meets the “rules” … Deltawing LLC ? The IRL ? Or this “comittee” that John Barnes and Ganassi have talked about ?? You still need tech inspectors at the track … who do they work for ??
Seems to me this whole “concept” is very vague … how the league is gonna have these “concepts” on the grid for 2012 is starting to look like a tough schedule to meet. First we gotta wait until the “concept” car gets built and tested … then the rules have to be written (or templates issued) and only then can companies like Swift, Lola, etc. even start to THINK about building a chassis …. and all that time the owners are bleeding money and the ratings continue to sink.
All good questions.
And I have the same questions, to be honest.
Again, the point of the exercise isn’t to solve EVERY outstanding issue with the DeltaWing concept or car – just to make it more palatable for people to consider. There were and are people who are dismissing the entire thing outright simply because of the way the foam model looks.
There are serious questions for me, for instance, about the Lola concepts. How can they build a car that is nearly identical in most respects to the current car and still say that it’s more efficient, cheaper by half, and so forth? Does all the cost savings come from the commonality aspect so that teams have less inventory?
I think at this point we’re still at the salesman stage. All of the manufacturers are throwing out a sales pitch – the difference is, DeltaWing’s sales pitch has more substance than style, whereas the other manufacturers are the opposite. A lot of the questions you and I have about things won’t get answered until more development work is done on the concept, and that won’t happen until one of the concepts is approved.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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It isn't just how it looks ....
First, let me say that stpwildcat has done an AWESOME job making the DW look somewhat … (geez … I hate to admit this … ) … almost … (gulp) …. kinda …. (cough cough mumble …) good looking.
My problem with the car is the narrow front track. Bowlby stated that he had to do that to improve the aerodynamics of the car. OK, but where does a car with about a 2 foot wide front end have any applicability in the “real world” ???
NASCAR (I’m basing this on estimates from autoextremist.com) gets about 50 to 75 MILLION dollars in direct and in-direct support from EACH auto manufacturer per year … so with Toyota, GM, Chrysler and Ford in that series NASCAR is getting about 200 to 300 MILLION dollars PER YEAR from the manufacturers. Would the IRL kill to see that kind of money ?? You betcha. Why are the manufacturers putting in that kind of money ??? Because they believe that they get payback for it. Now we can argue over the fact the manufacturers are unhappy right now with NASCAR (again, see autoextremist.com) and that there is a reasonable chance that support will be cut back, but the bottom line is the manufacturers see a direct relationship between the dollars they spend versus sales of cars, training of engineers, and advancing technology.
What does the DW project bring to the table if I’m GM, Ford, whomever ?? NOTHING.
Proving you can narrow the front end of the vehicle to about 3 feet and get better gas mileage isn’t a very useful concept if I’m designing an SUV or a family sedan. I already understand the concept that a lighter more aerodynamic vehicle will be more fuel efficient than a heavy vehicle with all kinds of aero impediments like wings. What is the Deltawing proving that would make a manufacturer like Ford come to the series and say “we want to invest 100 million dollars to prove this concept” ??? The concept is already “proved”
Engines ?? Sure it would be great to show that a 300 HP engine can push a car to over 200 MPH … but I can go to my local Subaru dealer TODAY and buy a WRX STI with a 36,000 mile warranty and get 305 HP under the hood … what is the Deltawing proving here …. that you can get 300 HP from an in-line 4 ???? Been there, done that … I can run it on the street with a warranty today.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t see what the Deltawing is out to prove … I can buy a 4 cylinder 300+ HP engine today with a warranty … I know that a car with fenders is more efficient than a car without fenders … and I know that a vehicle with a front end about 3 feet wide is useless on the “street” … How the HE*L is the Deltawing an advancement of technology ???
It's an advancement of INDYCAR technology...
…and the auto manufacturers would LOVE to be able to make a commercial saying, “Our engines are so efficient that we can build a small, 300hp motor and have it push an IndyCar to almost 240mph.” Sure, people who are “car guys” might not be impressed but a more casual potential fan might.
But I’m convinced that a great deal of the DeltaWing’s attractiveness as a solution stems from the fact that nobody else races anything remotely similar, and like it or not it GRABS ATTENTION. That’s something a NASCAR stock car doesn’t do anymore, and something that IndyCars haven’t done for almost a decade.
It could be that all of this is much ado about nothing. Who knows what is going through Brian Barnhart’s mind right now (insert your own joke here). It may be the DeltaWing has the shelf life of the Falcon. We’ll have to wait and see.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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I agree with you ... somewhat (insert smiley) ...
I totally agree that the IRL needs to grab attention, and that other race series (ALMS, WoO, NASCAR, etc.) haven’t pulled it off.
The “right answer” (IMHO) is to open up the rules and allow different engine types into the IRL. Imagine a series based on allowing ANY type of engine to be used .. diesel … gasoline … LNG … hybrid … ethanol … whatever … even electric and hybrid systems.
Turn the Indy 500 back to what it originally was … a proving ground for new technologies. and I’m a happy camler
Totally with you re: engines.
…which is part of the reason I have hopes for the DW. The buzz is that engine manufacturers are intrigued by the DW and the ability essentially drop an engine into it. The challenge of working with a new power-to-weight ratio as well as the turbo 4 might prove intriguing to the mfrs…
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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Look, just so long as you understand this is cartoons, that’s fine. An engineer (which is a qualification I do not posess) could look at the sketch and guesstimate that the wheel fairings and exposed tires would increase drag by 20%, maybe more.
And if he was generous enough to review your submission and comment on the deficiencies, you could do some homework and maybe create an innovation that had not occured to him. That’s the cartoon land I hope to tune into one day.
Of course, that still gets nobody paid for the required design work.
To Badazz’s point: here’s a more specific view of your concept. Let’s say Delta Wing publishes specifications for a rear lower wishbone on their website.
Cool, if I’m a fabricator, now I can submit a prototype to become an authorized supplier. Never mind design time, I’ll use their blueprints. So I build a jig and start making wishbones.
And who examines the welds? Makes sure the steel and the rod ends meet specifications? Makes sure the quality control is maintained so that my competitor doesn’t underbid me by using substandard materials?
So to me, that looks like Delta wing or the sanctioning body has to establish a sort of “UL labs” system for monitoring open source components.
When you build racecars in house, there is one set of rules, and one responsible party.
I photographed some of KV’s body panels at Homestead. They each had a Dallara part number sticker on the inside. I doubt that was an oversight, but rather an easy way to verify the authenticity of the component and eliminate the need to scrutinize it. No sanctioning body oversight required.
So this open source function can be achieved, but it also might take on a form that a lot of people won’t like. In reality, anyway.
Even the rendering still looks awful to me.
Anything with that narrow of a front track will never be considered decent looking to me.
DAMN YOU JUJU!!! You make about as little sense as John Clownzano!!!
Opening new doors. Today.
Please read Chris Estrada’s interview with Mr. Jihn Barnes, and the comments which follow:
Anybody Home?
Not much of an open source yet. How about this one:
Since the Delta Wing chassis is obviously a full ground effect design, will it not require active suspension control to avoid tunnel evacuation in pitch incidents?
Hopping the turtles with a rear wheel, as in the case at the end of the Mid-Ohio sim, will significantly disrupt downforce generation. If active suspension technology is a component of the design concepts, will the cost and complexity of this system be approved by the sanctioning body?
Calls answered
Thanks to Delta Wing for a response today. Others with questions may submit them to:
I am more of a NASCAR fan but I really want to like Indy Cars too
Definatly some of the best drivers in the world. It just seems that everytime I watch a race there is little passing. Do all the teams use the same setups? Or is all the equipment virtually the same?
Bad pick Peyton "Regular Season" Manning!!!
Welcome!
Most of the problem stems from IndyCar using a “spec” chassis and engine, which puts the advantage into the hands of the richest teams that can afford to R&D the hell out of the spec to get those added .1 and .2 seconds. Another problem is that aerodynamically the current IndyCars experience turbulence when the cars are lined up end to end, so it’s difficult to draft up past a competitor – drivers have to pull out earlier than you can in stock cars and by the time they’re side by side most of the momentum is gone.
A lot of the debate about the 2012 IndyCar spec has to do with changing all of that. DeltaWing supporters believe that the DW will encourage multiple engine manufacturers and differentiated bodies that will shake up the status quo without raising costs through the roof. Whether that’s true in practice is obviously up for debate. But all of the proposals out there now are aimed towards lowering costs and making passing easier.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
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I hope so I think the Delta wing looks really cool!
I heard that because of the areo of the Delta wing they could keep the same speeds with half the HP. I also heard it could really cut costs also
Bad pick Peyton "Regular Season" Manning!!!
You heard right... theoretically at least.
In theory, the DeltaWing will generate 235mph speeds with 300-350hp (turbocharged). Cost targets are less than half of what a current IndyCar and engine package costs.
You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
Pop Off Valve - A greasy hot tenderloin of IndyCar goodness!
Delta Wing perhaps, but motors...
I’m warming up to the DW if (only if) something like the restyle is possible within the framework of what they propose for ‘open source’. Much more attractive, and in keeping with the open-wheel style. I understand that was low to nil on the priorities of the design, but the fans do have to not dismiss it totally out of the box, or maybe even embrace it a bit and that’s simply not the case at this point.
An inverse of this is what I’d personally like to see: a single spec chassis with specs open for propulsion systems that meet a specified/designated fuel amount per race concept that would at least represent 10mpg average. 500 miles = 50 gallons = get to the finish line as fast as you can and within the fuel allowance.
I think many motor and general auto manufacturers will be falling all over each other to get their ‘lump’ into the chassis. When gasoline hits $5 a gallon in the US (and it will sooner than later) this series will become more and more relevant as a laboratory and marketplace and as a viable series of interest.
by GroundedEffects on Feb 23, 2010 4:42 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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